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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 273320 times)
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  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1410 - September 09, 2014, 12:47 PM

    You don't have to, just thought that it might be taken more seriously in more academic language!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1411 - September 09, 2014, 12:48 PM

    I really enjoyed this section, particularly the insight into the verse of the angels Harut and Marut. It is impossible to distinguish the rolls of Allah and his angels from the rolls of Shaytan and his devils.


    Yes, that story is a corker!*









    *Being a Yank, you may have to look that one up HM lol
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1412 - September 09, 2014, 12:49 PM

    You don't have to, just thought that it might be taken more seriously in more academic language!


    You are right, Lily  Smiley
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1413 - September 09, 2014, 01:57 PM

    @Abu Ali

     If I may play devil's advocate 

    Quote
    God who sent down from heaven these two angels on a special urgent mission with the specific task of teaching people magic. Why? So that they could learn how to split up a man from his wife and learn that which harms them and does not benefit them? If you say it is to test man, then what is the difference between God's testing and Satan's misleading? What makes one bad and the other good?

     

    The difference between allah's testing and shaytan's misleading is that allah tests his subjects to separate the righteous from the wrong doers and shaytan's purpose is only to get have as many people burn in the hellfire as possible.

    Allah is the teacher or professor who gives an exam to test his students on their knowledge and shaytan is the jealous student who deliberately tempts his fellows classmates with beer so that they fail the exams

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1414 - September 09, 2014, 02:02 PM

    oh and Abu ali I would like to make one suggestion.

    In the translation you use the word  "devils" to describe the jinn. I think that might mislead people not familiar with islamic theology to think that jinns in islam are the same as devils in Christianity. 

    In Christianity devils are purely evil beings while in Islam the jinn can be evil but they can also be pious muslims as well.

    It might be a small thing but when the book goes public your going to be having muslim apologists go through it with a fine toothed comb it might be good to be as nitpicky as possible.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1415 - September 09, 2014, 02:16 PM

    @Abu Ali

     If I may play devil's advocate  
      

    The difference between allah's testing and shaytan's misleading is that allah tests his subjects to separate the righteous from the wrong doers and shaytan's purpose is only to get have as many people burn in the hellfire as possible.

    Allah is the teacher or professor who gives an exam to test his students on their knowledge and shaytan is the jealous student who deliberately tempts his fellows classmates with beer so that they fail the exams

    It still begs the question as to why Allah would bother going through such an elaborate and inefficient process. If he is al- knowing and all-powerful, then he could create beings from the get-go that would fulfill all of his requirements - worshipping him and praising him eternally.

    Starting off with a “test” seems to imply that he was not sure which of his products would function properly and which wouldn’t. Manufacturers do tests on their creations all the time because they know that they themselves are fallible; they may have produced a product that does not operate as intended. This is ultimately what we would call a “manufacturer’s defect.” Even if we do end up destroying those defective creations, the blame ultimately lies on their creator. It is further absurd to suggest that these flawed creations should be punished eternally for turning out the way they were created. This is especially important because if this punishment is indeed eternal, it can serve no purpose. It exists in a realm when it cannot serve as an example or deterrent for those to come. Nor can those being punished ever benefit from the “lesson” they have learned.

    This is unlike a university test that aims to distinguish the bright and hardworking from the dull and lazy. If you fail a university exam, your failure IS your punishment/consequence. There is no additional torture required. In cases when parents or interested parties might punish a student for failing, it is only for the sake of encouraging them to do better. It it’s not a punishment for the sake of punishment.

    Allah’s punishments, on the other hand, appear to be completely vindictive if they happen at the “end of time.” I once heard the analogy of hell as punishing a child who is on his death bed dying of cancer for not washing his hands or not making his bed last week. It’s a moot exercise.

    On the subject of jinn versus devils, this distinction exists in Arabic. The Qur’an often speaks of shayateen, which are evil “devils” that can be human or jinn. The jinn, just like humans, can be good or evil. In the verse of Harut and Marut specifically, the word shayateen is used, which actually does not say much about whether they were shayateen of men or shayateen of jinn, though it is usually understood that the shayateen of jinn were implied.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1416 - September 09, 2014, 02:46 PM

    Yes, that story is a corker!*









    *Being a Yank, you may have to look that one up HM lol


     Huh?
    cork·er/ˈkôrkər/
    noun
    1.an excellent or astonishing person or thing.
    2.a device that places a cork into a bottle.

    Grin Maybe I should use google.co.uk
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1417 - September 09, 2014, 03:00 PM

    @Abu Ali

     If I may play devil's advocate 
     

    The difference between allah's testing and shaytan's misleading is that allah tests his subjects to separate the righteous from the wrong doers and shaytan's purpose is only to get have as many people burn in the hellfire as possible.

    Allah is the teacher or professor who gives an exam to test his students on their knowledge and shaytan is the jealous student who deliberately tempts his fellows classmates with beer so that they fail the exams


    True, but it still amounts to the same thing. For example in the verse in question the angels (on God's order) do exactly what Shaytan does - tempt people then say he is free from them. The intention may be different, but the act and the outcome is exactly the same.

    God might as well either dispense with the devil and just do all the tempting himself - or not interfere at all and leave it to Shatan.

    But saying that the tempting God does is good and praiseworthy - but the tempting the devil does is bad and will be punished in Hell - is arbitrary.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1418 - September 09, 2014, 03:04 PM

    oh and Abu ali I would like to make one suggestion.

    In the translation you use the word  "devils" to describe the jinn. I think that might mislead people not familiar with islamic theology to think that jinns in islam are the same as devils in Christianity. 

    In Christianity devils are purely evil beings while in Islam the jinn can be evil but they can also be pious muslims as well.

    It might be a small thing but when the book goes public your going to be having muslim apologists go through it with a fine toothed comb it might be good to be as nitpicky as possible.


    Good point - thanks TDR  Afro

    I'll change it to just a transliteration - shayaateen - Muslims will all know what that means. Smiley
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1419 - September 09, 2014, 03:19 PM

    Starting off with a “test” seems to imply that he was not sure which of his products would function properly


    Plus they are they are very poor "tests" indeed. Think about the Sabbath breakers who lived by the sea and depended of fishing to survive. God made the fish scarce on every other day but plentiful on the Sabbath so the people began to starve.

    What kind of a test is that?

    In British Law - I don't know about the US - we call this "entrapment" and it is not allowed!

    Then when some finally decided to go and fish on the Sabbath God jumps out "Aha caught you red handed"

    and...

    turns them into... monkeys and pigs. <pregnant pause - look up at audience with poker face>
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1420 - September 09, 2014, 04:04 PM

    btw Teapot, could you also change the title in the index for chapter 5 part 2 to as below:

    5.2 God & Satan: Two Sides of the Same Coin.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1421 - September 09, 2014, 04:07 PM

    The more I think about this, the more completely bizarre the teachings of the Qur’an turn out to be. I was thinking about what I posted above about hell being completely vindictive, and I’m reminded that Allah describes himself thu-ntiqaam—full of vengeance. Since when is craving revenge just to sate your appetite for getting back at someone a virtue? Since when is it compatible with mercy? Mercy and revenge are polar opposites, even if your appetite for revenge is justified.

    Quote
    In British Law - I don't know about the US - we call this "entrapment" and it is not allowed!

    Then when some finally decided to go and fish on the Sabbath God jumps out "Aha caught you red handed"

    and...

    turns them into monkeys and pigs. <pregnant pause - look up at audience with poker face>  


    ^ Grin

    Yes! Allah clearly transgresses in his vengeance as well. He is not harmed by our disbelief, or by our fishing on Saturdays, or eating bacon, or by breaking any other of his silly rules, yet he punishes ruthlessly for them. Then he calls himself just. Huh? It is a truly bizarre notion to believe.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1422 - September 09, 2014, 04:12 PM

    yeah I never understood why allah wants revenge either ?   

    Revenge only makes sense when someone has harmed you in some way and you want him to suffer the same.

    Allah wanting revenge against humans for not obeying islam is like me trying to get revenge against someone for not buying me an expensive gift. It is completely absurd and indicative of a disturbed mind.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1423 - September 22, 2014, 12:45 PM

    One thing that puzzled me was that although this book can be found on some anti - Islam and Arab Christian sites it is not well promoted. It is also conspicuous by its absence from others. But having read it I can see that it is both anti - religion as a whole. Christianity as much as Islam and it is also slightly left wing. At least that's the impression I get. So I can see why the Christian right and neocons are hesitant to promote it.

    I'd be interested in the thoughts of others?
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1424 - September 22, 2014, 12:53 PM

    Simply, these people are biased cunts. They pick and choose what suits them, nodding along in agreement when it fits their anti-islam view and getting uncomfortable when it focuses on them. Or maybe it's that both the author and themselves understand islam perfectly, but the author doesn't understand christianity. Poor sod. Let's help him embrace Jesus.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1425 - September 22, 2014, 12:59 PM

    I’m sure the fact that the book doesn’t go on promoting Christianity is a huge part of it. Another thing might be the fact that the book is very much from the perspective of someone intimately familiar with the style and rhetoric of the Qur’an. I doubt rightwing Jesus nutters would really grasp why the parts comparing oaths of the Qur’an with the ramblings of the soothsayers, or the parts that deal with Allah’s split merciful/sadist personality are so insightful.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1426 - September 22, 2014, 03:33 PM

    The recent translations did reveal to me the fact that Islam really can be manipulated by the elites to control people and continue the 'rich, poor divide' that has always existed.
    Christian right and neocons hate Communism, so they would love the idea that equal distribution of wealth is against gods plan. They only wish their bible had those verses.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1427 - September 22, 2014, 03:41 PM

    the author and themselves understand islam perfectly, but the author doesn't understand christianity. Poor sod. Let's help him embrace Jesus.


    lol Yep - that's what they would say.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1428 - September 22, 2014, 03:44 PM

    I’m sure the fact that the book doesn’t go on promoting Christianity is a huge part of it. Another thing might be the fact that the book is very much from the perspective of someone intimately familiar with the style and rhetoric of the Qur’an. I doubt rightwing Jesus nutters would really grasp why the parts comparing oaths of the Qur’an with the ramblings of the soothsayers, or the parts that deal with Allah’s split merciful/sadist personality are so insightful.


    There's definitely a lot in there that only a Muslim/ex-Muslim would fully appreciate.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1429 - September 22, 2014, 03:46 PM

    The recent translations did reveal to me the fact that Islam really can be manipulated by the elites to control people and continue the 'rich, poor divide' that has always existed.
    Christian right and neocons hate Communism, so they would love the idea that equal distribution of wealth is against gods plan. They only wish their bible had those verses.


    Yes, the author really focussed on the inequality bits in the last few passages.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1430 - October 08, 2014, 11:49 PM



    I especially liked this part. I distinctly recall struggling with this as I lost my faith. From my perspective as I was thinking about it, I struggled with the idea of God taking credit for creating animals for our benefit when we know that those animals actually spent billions of years evolving, then required domestication before they were of any use to humans.

    See, I had come to accept that evolution by natural selection must be true, the evidence being entirely too overwhelming to dismiss. But I was also willing to accept the idea that Adam must have been a unique creation, apart and separate from the evolutionary process. The problem was that as I tried to make myself believe this, I kept recalling all the verses that talk about animals that Allah created for us.

    "And he sent down upon you, of the cattle, eight pairs."

    "Do they not consider the camel, how it was created?"

    "And horses and mules and donkeys, so that you may ride them and as a source of beauty."

    All of those verses implied that these animals were created for man, yet we know the process of domestication happened because of man. And at the end of the day, if the Qur'an really was referring to a long process of evolution that also involved the hand of man in selective breeding, then wouldn't it be more proof of a divine revelation to include those details, instead of describing the process as though it were instantaneous?

  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1431 - October 09, 2014, 12:07 AM

    All of those verses implied that these animals were created for man, yet we know the process of domestication happened because of man. And at the end of the day, if the Qur'an really was referring to a long process of evolution that also involved the hand of man in selective breeding, then wouldn't it be more proof of a divine revelation to include those details, instead of describing the process as though it were instantaneous?


    No, no... silly. It makes much more sense to compose the Qur'an in such a way that it can easily be misinterpreted to say something quite different to what God really wanted to say to us.

  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1432 - October 09, 2014, 12:13 AM

    Communication 101
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1433 - October 09, 2014, 12:14 AM


    All of those verses implied that these animals were created for man, yet we know the process of domestication happened because of man. And at the end of the day, if the Qur'an really was referring to a long process of evolution that also involved the hand of man in selective breeding, then wouldn't it be more proof of a divine revelation to include those details, instead of describing the process as though it were instantaneous?


    btw I think the above would be good to add as a note to that last part. Do you mind if I use it, perhaps tinker with it a bit.

    I'll do it tomorrow though. I'm off to bed now lol
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1434 - October 09, 2014, 12:31 AM

    Be my guest.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1435 - October 09, 2014, 01:23 PM

    Thanks - this is what I added.

    *Islam, like many other religions, paints a picture of the world that God created  instantaneously, exactly as we see it now. The animals, fruits, crops all perfectly engineered, ready for man to use. However modern evolutionary science paints quite a different picture. Both the plants and animals we use today, evolved from wild species. It is only through man's intervention and actions that the fruit, crops and animals we know today have developed by selectively breeding them in captivity. It is man's action that changed the course of evolution by artificial selection, which over hundreds & thousands of years has resulted in the domesticated breeds we know today. The earliest archeological evidence we have of domesticated animals & crops dates from around 10,000 BC.

    Now you have a part in the book - so when a Fatwa is slapped on my forehead, I'll say; "Well HM did it too!"  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1436 - October 09, 2014, 01:28 PM

    Dammit, a whole paragraph? I only get a word change!

     Tongue

    Only joking!

    Haha!

    Keep up the good work Abu and all on this thread!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1437 - October 09, 2014, 01:31 PM

    hehe... cheers  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1438 - October 09, 2014, 01:36 PM

    Thanks - this is what I added.

    *Islam, like many other religions, paints a picture of the world that God created  instantaneously, exactly as we see it now. The animals, fruits, crops all perfectly engineered, ready for man to use. However modern evolutionary science paints quite a different picture. Both the plants and animals we use today, evolved from wild species. It is only through man's intervention and actions that the fruit, crops and animals we know today have developed by selectively breeding them in captivity. It is man's action that changed the course of evolution by artificial selection, which over hundreds & thousands of years has resulted in the domesticated breeds we know today. The earliest archeological evidence we have of domesticated animals & crops dates from around 10,000 BC.

    Now you have a part in the book - so when a Fatwa is slapped on my forehead, I'll say; "Well HM did it too!"  Afro

     Grin Lan atabara’ minka yaa shaikhana, Abadan.  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1439 - October 09, 2014, 01:38 PM

    Awww habibi HM  far away hug
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