Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 05:47 AM

New Britain
April 16, 2024, 12:05 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

What's happened to the fo...
April 11, 2024, 01:00 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
February 01, 2024, 12:10 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Pakistan: The Nation.....
January 28, 2024, 02:12 PM

Gaza assault
January 27, 2024, 01:08 PM

Nawal El Saadawi: Egypt's...
January 27, 2024, 12:24 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 272869 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 41 42 4344 45 ... 61 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1260 - July 26, 2014, 06:11 PM

    test....

    https://jumpshare.com/b/JbCqRmrJXvdjLGQcCypB


    Hello Hassan and other guys.. see whether you guys can down load a file from that link.. word file of that PDF link

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1261 - July 26, 2014, 06:21 PM


    https://jumpshare.com/b/JbCqRmrJXvdjLGQcCypB


    Hello Hassan and other guys.. see whether you guys can down load a file from that link.. word file of that PDF link

    Oh dear. You are going great guns then. How many chapters in total?

    well  Lilyesque  click that link   download that file and  tell me how many chapters are there in it..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1262 - July 26, 2014, 06:27 PM

    Apologies Yeez, my brain hasn't been in gear for a while!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1263 - July 28, 2014, 09:48 PM

    I have got a good feel for the author's style and what he is saying - and I feel so at one with him - like he is speaking my mind.

    As a result I feel confident enough to take the occasional liberty with the translation, because I want to ensure the impact in English remains strong, I will occasionally put things in my own words - as I totally get what he's trying to say in Arabic, but I feel that if I try to translate too literally, then it may lose that impact.

    Arabic and English are very different stylistically and Arabic tends to be more flowery and over-done... at least for the English lol
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1264 - July 28, 2014, 09:54 PM

    So  first part of chapter-4 is done.. http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10465.msg771115#msg771115

     so let us upgrade that original file.. add it is here

    https://jumpshare.com/b/fJqbFYkn5KJjdLzFTZYb

    well that is latest PDF file which includes that 4th chapter PART-1., the above link gives pdf file..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1265 - July 30, 2014, 08:31 PM

    Some of the recent pieces have been quite poignant - especially in light of what's going on in Gaza right now:

    "(Allah) Who answers the distressed when he calls on Him, and Who relieves his suffering." (27:62)

    What "answer" is he talking about here? Who's suffering did he relieve? When? Did he answer the prayer of the mother who's child writhed & cried with hunger pains before he died in her arms? Did he answer the prayers of the countless innocents that suffer and die daily all round the world - especially in Muslim countries? Or did he not hear their prayers?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1266 - July 30, 2014, 08:41 PM

    Quote
    This contempt and denigration of humanity is a feature of the Qur'an. However if it is really true that man needs Allah, then why did he choose him alone, to be his deputy (Khalifah) on earth and entrust him with such important duties that no-one else can do? Why is he constantly finding fault with him and with his disobedience and rebellious nature, when rebelling and disobedience are among the characteristics of one who is not in need?


    This!!!!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1267 - July 30, 2014, 08:44 PM

    I have got a good feel for the author's style and what he is saying - and I feel so at one with him - like he is speaking my mind.

    As a result I feel confident enough to take the occasional liberty with the translation, because I want to ensure the impact in English remains strong, I will occasionally put things in my own words - as I totally get what he's trying to say in Arabic, but I feel that if I try to translate too literally, then it may lose that impact.

    Arabic and English are very different stylistically and Arabic tends to be more flowery and over-done... at least for the English lol


    yes, translation is about capturing the voice and spirit of what is being said precisely but also conveying it in a manner that is engaging in the new language. You're doing a great job.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1268 - July 30, 2014, 08:56 PM

    This!!!!


    Yeah, don't you just love this guy - I feel he's my soul mate lol

    I like his point that verses like this:

    "And Allah sets forth a parable: (Consider) a town safe and secure to which its means of subsistence come in abundance from every quarter; but it became ungrateful to Allah's favors, therefore Allah made it to taste the utmost degree of hunger and fear because of what they wrought." (16:112)

    Are meaningless, because we don't in fact see in real life any examples of this. Famines and disasters are never just restricted to "bad" people. So in what way is the verse above a valid parable (مثل) ?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1269 - July 30, 2014, 08:57 PM

    yes, translation is about capturing the voice and spirit of what is being said precisely but also conveying it in a manner that is engaging in the new language. You're doing a great job.


    Cheers  Smiley
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1270 - July 31, 2014, 05:17 PM

    My oh my. I swear this stuff is like it comes right out of my own mind. Here is what I wrote a while back.

    I know exactly what you mean. I had memorized 23 of the Qu’an’s 30 parts and could understand their meanings. When you go beyond mere recitation and random quoting, when you really begin to contemplate what is being said, the book begins to unravel into a hate-filled rant that seems unworthy of an all-merciful, dignified, intelligent, being. Far from being a book of spiritual inspiration, the Qur’an gives you a very disturbing look into the troubled mindset of Muhammad.

    Even apart from the major things like the sickening descriptions of torture and the unrestricted lust for women, the way the Qur’an was used as a tool to manipulate his followers and play on their fears and hopes was all too disturbing.

    The paranoia that Muhammad had against almost everyone, even his own followers, is very apparent.

    The way that he deflected any criticism away from himself and instead blamed and threatened people who were raising what now I consider to be legitimate concerns was another problem. The Qur’an is full of those “how dare you try to call my bluff” moments.

    Another recurring theme is what I call the “had it not been for x, y would have happened” moments. There are always these weak, mundane, elements that prevent the hand of god from manifesting itself in Muhammad’s career, and subsequently proving his claim to prophethood. “Had it not been that Allah had prescribed exile upon them, he would have punished them in this life.” “Had it not been for a word that had preceded from your lord, the punishment would have been definite” “Had it not been for the mercy of God upon you, a grievous punishment would have touched you” And on and on and on. There is always a pathetic reason why Allah can not act out his will in Muhammad’s life. It was not strange then that Muhammad’s detractors continued to ask him for a simple sign. I agree with them when they refused to leave the ways of their fathers on account of his words and empty threats.

    Another thing that troubled me about the Qur’an was how much disdain and hatred God seemed to have for human beings. He created us with a certain nature, and then sounds completely pissed off that we turned out the way he created us. The Qur’an says that God created us “weak,” “ignorant,” “oppressive,” “impatient,” “ungrateful” and on and on the insults go. As a human being, not only did I find this offensive, I also find it to be an epic fail on God’s part. If his entire purpose behind creating us was to worship and serve him, then he failed. He failed because he deliberately and pointlessly gave us traits that would hinder us from fulfilling our sole purpose for existence. It baffles me why he would be so upset as to want to torture us eternally for turning out exactly the way he created us.

    I could really go on and on with all of the problems I had with the Qur’an, but I think this is enough for now. I’m not sure how Muslims can read through the entire book, believe it is from God, and still have any element of respect and love for the guy. His only redeeming quality is that he does not exist. 


  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1271 - July 31, 2014, 05:20 PM

    My oh my. I swear this stuff is like it comes right out of my own mind. Here is what I wrote a while back.



    Haha  Afro

    Walahi me too - everytime I translate a sentence or passage - I go: OMG he must be reading my mind.

    I just love this book - absolutely awesome !!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1272 - July 31, 2014, 06:21 PM

    I thought the comparison between the Qur'an and the speeches of demagogues was spot on too lol

    The Qur'an is a unique oratory phenomena that has no likeness except in the speeches the greatest demagogues of history

    From Wiki:

    A demagogue /ˈdɛməɡɒɡ/ or rabble-rouser is a political leader in a democracy who appeals to the emotions, fears, prejudices, and ignorance of the lower classes in order to gain power and promote political motives. Demagogues usually oppose deliberation and advocate immediate, violent action to address a national crisis; they accuse moderate and thoughtful opponents of weakness. Demagogues have appeared in democracies since ancient Athens. They exploit a fundamental weakness in democracy: because ultimate power is held by the people, nothing stops the people from giving that power to someone who appeals to the lowest common denominator of a large segment of the population.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1273 - July 31, 2014, 06:28 PM

    Haha! A bit like Hitler then.

    Mein Kampfesque.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1274 - July 31, 2014, 06:49 PM

    I thought the comparison between the Qur'an and the speeches of demagogues was spot on too lol

    The Qur'an is a unique oratory phenomena that has no likeness except in the speeches the greatest demagogues of history

    From Wiki:

    A demagogue /ˈdɛməɡɒɡ/ or rabble-rouser is a political leader in a democracy who appeals to the emotions, fears, prejudices, and ignorance of the lower classes in order to gain power and promote political motives. Demagogues usually oppose deliberation and advocate immediate, violent action to address a national crisis; they accuse moderate and thoughtful opponents of weakness. Demagogues have appeared in democracies since ancient Athens. They exploit a fundamental weakness in democracy: because ultimate power is held by the people, nothing stops the people from giving that power to someone who appeals to the lowest common denominator of a large segment of the population.


    I had an epiphany once watching the late Muammar Qaddafi rambling on an on against his own people at the start of the civil war, praising those who loved him and threatening anyone who opposed him. It reminded me of what absolute and unchecked power can do to a person and I realized just how much he sounded like Allah. I actually started saying some Qur’anic verses not in the beautiful recitation of tarteel but in the best raspy bedouin accent I could muster without any melody. Suddenly, I heard just how ridiculous the Qur’an sounds at times. Try it. Grin “Wa man yatawalla, nu’athibhu! Athaaban aleema!!”  
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1275 - July 31, 2014, 06:58 PM

    I actually started saying some Qur’anic verses not in the beautiful recitation of tarteel but in the best raspy bedouin accent I could muster without any melody. Suddenly, I heard just how ridiculous the Qur’an sounds at times. Try it. Grin “Wa man yatawalla, nu’athibhu! Athaaban aleema!!”  


     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
    Haha... I will now always imagine Gaddafi voice when the reading the Qur'an - brilliant  Cheesy Cheesy Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1276 - August 03, 2014, 09:48 PM

    Chapter 4

    Part 12

    Verses that Have No Meaning.


    In the Qur'an there are a significant number of verses that have no meaning, even though as usual the mufassirun are able to bring about wonders with their waffling and prattling and defence of the meaningless and producing one eloquent meaning after another! They are motivated by the ideology of justifying anything and everything in the Qur'an to the extent that the crooked verses become pearls of wisdom, fonts of knowledge, the source of eloquence and the template for good style which man cannot attain!

    1.

    (37:1) "By those ranged in ranks."

    (37:2) "Then those who drive away with reproof."

    (37:3) "And those who recite a reminder."

    (37:4) "Lo! Your Lord is surely One."

    What do the first three verses mean? Nay, these three riddles! And what do they have to do with the oneness of God? Did you understand anything? I challenge man and Jinn to understand these verses - bearing in mind Jinn know Arabic as we saw in the previous section, and by reading Surah Al-Jinn it is clear that amongst the Jinn are masters of eloquence and good style not to mention their knowledge of the secrets of the unseen which they are more proficient in than us!

    What shall I say? Even the mufassirun themselves couldn't understand anything. But these poor souls are obliged by the nature of their profession to understand everything. Yes, these verses must have some meaning. At the very least the meaning attached to them in language, just like any words that people speak. But the meaning is trivial and not worthy of being used as an oath by God to his servants. Of course the mufassirun will not accept that God would swear by things that have no value, so they assume that behind these verses are profound wisdoms, and deep meanings that befit him, Most High is he. So they with their soaring imagination, nay with their myth-making imagination, and armed with strong, unshakable faith that these verses - these riddles - have sublime meanings, great significance & lofty ends that our limited understanding cannot comprehend, nor our human intellect fathom… and how can it when it is revelation from the All-Wise, the All-Knowing. So they ponder, evaluate, scrutinise and examine these verses closely. But despite this they cannot arrive at a solution. So in this case they must resort to the religious traditions, legends, exegetical techniques and sayings of the pious!

    Thus, "those ranged in ranks." are angels who arrange themselves into rows for worship, or their wings in the air, waiting to be commanded with a task. Likewise; "Those who drive away" are also angels who drive along the clouds. As for; "Those who recite" they are either the angels again, or it means people who recite the Qur'an and the use of the feminine ( التاليات ) is for an elided word such as "group" ( جماعة ) or perhaps there is a subtle wisdom, or a Quranic miracle that we haven't yet discovered!



    This section is particularly insightful and important. Many of us are so familiar with the Tafsir that we forget that on their own, these verses really have no meaning.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1277 - August 04, 2014, 12:23 PM

    Indeed and I thought this bit was spot on too:

     "The use of the Jurative "Waw" is where one swears by something that is known to its audience in order to confirm something else. In what way do these three verses, whose meaning is unknown, confirm the "Oneness" of Allah (as stated in the 4th verse)? "
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1278 - August 05, 2014, 05:21 PM

    Since your last update, I’ve been thinking about the use of “waw al qasam” in the Qur’an and I’m wondering if it might indeed be indicative of plagiarism from Arab soothsayers. It’s interesting that the Qur’an claims that many of those who heard its verses dismissed them as the words of a soothsayer, but what if they were implying that those words were literally taken from the works of earlier soothsayers? So many of the verses that start with waw al qasam are completely nonsensical on their own. Even when you say that they are referring to angels or what have you, they still add nothing of value to the surah. I wonder if they really were taken directly from the riddles and spells of Arab soothsayers. 
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1279 - August 05, 2014, 06:56 PM

    That's an interesting idea. Quite possibly!

    The fact that the Qur'an itself mentions these accusations of being the speech of soothsayers shows it was something that hit a nerve with Muhammad.

    It's also interesting that those making the accusations of the Qur'an being the saj' of the soothsayers must have known what they were talking about otherwise they wouldn't have made the accusation. The Qur'an's only reply to the accusation is that "It is not the speech of poets or soothsayers..." which is not much of a rebuttal.

    I find it amusing how modern Muslims often say how all the Arabs at the time recognised it was miraculous speech.

    This is simply not true - and the Qur'an itself attests to this fact!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1280 - August 05, 2014, 07:23 PM

    I think an entire book (or thread) could be written on the failed rebuttals of the Quran. I challenge anyone to bring me a legitimate, coherent rebuttal that is not a threat, a logical fallacy, or a complete avoidance of the question posed.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1281 - August 05, 2014, 08:02 PM

    That's an interesting idea. Quite possibly!

    The fact that the Qur'an itself mentions these accusations of being the speech of soothsayers shows it was something that hit a nerve with Muhammad.

    It's also interesting that those making the accusations of the Qur'an being the saj' of the soothsayers must have known what they were talking about otherwise they wouldn't have made the accusation. The Qur'an's only reply to the accusation is that "It is not the speech of poets or soothsayers..." which is not much of a rebuttal.

    I find it amusing how modern Muslims often say how all the Arabs at the time recognised it was miraculous speech.

    This is simply not true - and the Qur'an itself attests to this fact!


    Fantastic. Not just that but the Qur'an and the hadith literature, as well as later Islamic scholars, appear to express a pathalogical hatred towards poets and un-Islamic poetry. Muhammad's own life attests to this paranoia as he murdered poets and rebukes them at every opportunity. Furthermore, the Qur'an's polemics are directed at those who argue Muhammad was regurgitating ancient tales and myths. Far from being the characteristics of a jahil society, the Hijazi(?) Arabs appear to have been a literate society that was well versed in the tales of the ancients and challenged claims made by self-proclaimed prophets.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1282 - August 05, 2014, 08:28 PM

    I think an entire book (or thread) could be written on the failed rebuttals of the Quran. I challenge anyone to bring me a legitimate, coherent rebuttal that is not a threat, a logical fallacy, or a complete avoidance of the question posed.


    Absolutely!

    But you'd be surprised how far you can get just using logical fallacies, threats and just good old cryptic jibber-jabber lol
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1283 - August 05, 2014, 08:44 PM

    For HM or anyone else who fancies a little challenge. The next bit is about the opening verses of Al-Nazi'aat and as with most of these cryptic verses I immediately think of the meanings given them by the tafseers. But when you strip that away you realise how utterly incomprehensible they are.

    Have a go translating the verses below - simply according to their linguistic meaning - not tafseers:

    { وَٱلنَّازِعَاتِ غَرْقاً } * { وَٱلنَّاشِطَاتِ نَشْطاً } * { وَٱلسَّابِحَاتِ سَبْحاً } * { فَٱلسَّابِقَاتِ سَبْقاً } * { فَٱلْمُدَبِّرَاتِ أَمْراً } * { يَوْمَ تَرْجُفُ ٱلرَّاجِفَةُ } * { تَتْبَعُهَا ٱلرَّادِفَةُ }


  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1284 - August 05, 2014, 09:58 PM

    It's essentially just the Quranic version of, " I said a hip hop, Hippie to the hippie, The hip, hip a hop, and you don't stop, a rock it To the bang bang boogie, say, up jump the boogie, To the rhythm of the boogie, the beat."
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1285 - August 05, 2014, 10:07 PM

     banana dance Ozonedance banana dance Ozonedance banana dance

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1286 - August 05, 2014, 10:10 PM

    Haha!!! Brilliant  Cheesy Cheesy

    I like your's better than the Qur'an's.

    I have just translated a bit of the book where he says "it is simply speech for the sake of speech" - and that's it's exactly what it is. Just nice sounding words with the added bonus that no fucker knows what they mean.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1287 - August 05, 2014, 10:28 PM

    Im being a bit lazy now, since I haven't looked it up in the quran or read this thread. Does this mean that you can say that the ancient arabs thought that Quran was similar to what the soothsayers used come up with...meaning that the quran/surah like it challenge has already been met according to Quran/Islamic traditions. If they thought quran was similar to the work of soothsayers according to islamic traditions, then that's an admission. Isn't?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1288 - August 05, 2014, 10:53 PM

    Parts of the Qur'an are in Saj' - rhymed prose - which is what the Soothsayers (Kahin/Kuhaan) used for their pronouncements.

    This is especially true of the shorter surahs towards the end of the Qur'an. Those who have recited them will recognise them as the short, terse, musical and rhyming verses - often opening a surah, with the refrain running through the sura - or changing to another rhyme/refrain.

    The Qur'an itself mentions that Muhammad was accused of being a Kahin (Soothsayer) and that the Qur'an was the speech of the soothsayers.

    btw Kahin is related to the Jewish name Cohen. Hey I'm full of interesting facts. In Arabic it means soothsayer, but in Hebrew I think it means some sort of rabbi or priestly office.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1289 - August 05, 2014, 10:56 PM

    Oh and don't be lazy - read the actual book. The link is at the start of this thread.
  • Previous page 1 ... 41 42 4344 45 ... 61 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »